people, they should look at electronics. Just looking at yourself in the mirror can get awfully boring. Looking at other kinds of organizations and seeing what ideas they came up with and then seeing how you can apply them to your own situation is where other opportunities lie

GT: You mentioned that there are some additional challenges in the public sector that are not found in the private sector. How should public sector managers go about identifying these issues and resolving them in a reengineering project? Hammer: I have a chapter in the book Reengineering Revolution subtitled "Reengineering in Mission-Driven Organizations." And by mission driven, I mean organizations that are not there primarily to make money, but to accomplish a mission, which includes public sector organizations. That chapter discusses some of the specific issues that need to be addressed

I don't think identifying the issues is the hard part. I can't tell people how to deal with them because there's no cookbook answer. What's required above all is what I call passion and determination. If the senior leadership of an organization is passionately committed to making this kind of change happen, then they'll find a way around all obstacles. And if they're not, they'll use obstacles as an excuse to back off. So it's really not an issue of techniques as much as it is an issue of serious commitment

GT: For a state or local government employee reading this who is considering beginning a reengineering program, where should they begin? Hammer: The place you start reengineering is by identifying your processes

Processes are the real work the organization does, not the names of the organizational units. It really identifies the work - the value-creating work - you do

Networking typically cuts across your departmental structure. So you have to start by identifying your processes because those are the things reengineering applies to. What you then do is have someone put in charge of these processes. In the traditional organization, no one is in charge of them so they fall through the cracks

Now you're really off to the races. You put together a team of people who are going to be commissioned to look really hard at a process, give them the resources they need and the freedom to break the rules and do what's necessary. That's how you get started

GT: What sort of person should the project leader be? Hammer: It has to be a senior-level person. Reengineering is not tinkering at the margin. Reengineering is cutting into the very basics of how the organization operates. Only someone at or near the top really has the authority to facilitate such an effort and the stature to ensure that it succeeds. This is not a project that can be undertaken by someone bottom up or by someone in the information systems organization

The ISO has an important role to play, but that role is not leadership. If the ISO tries to exercise leadership in this area, by and large it will fail. What they can do is act as a catalyst to persuade a senior person that something needs to be done. But after that it's got to be the job of a senior person to make it happen

GT: Are their specific personalities, attitudes or backgrounds for people in reengineering leadership positions? Hammer: They vary and there's no single pattern. There's the executive leader who commissions the whole effort and there's the person who has operational responsibility for it. At the moment we're talking about the latter - an information systems person. They are comfortable with change, appreciate what technology can do, are risk-tolerant and have a broad view of the organization. The disadvantage is that they often rely on overly structured methodologies to get everything done, which takes